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Author Topic: Starcraft 2  (Read 2313 times)
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 11:15:23 PM »

I'm not sure how accurate that site is, but everything from the videos seems to jive with it. And about the zerg lacking air defenses, it looks like hydralisks are pretty good for the job based on the website (+8 bonus against air) and the videos (the zerg v terran one three hydras seemed to be able to take down a whole bunch of terran airships). And we haven't even seen the mutalisks or spore crawler.
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 11:40:11 PM »

there was a video way back that had mutalisks - no longer did their attacks hit multiple targets, and their attack was just as slow, though more damage was done - I think the idea there was that they do far better as a swarm. The hydralisks and the spore crawlers may be excellent StA, but on a map of islands, air superiority would be crucial, and ground units, while excellent at defense, may not be as effective as the multiple flying units the terrans and the toss have to deal with air.

That said, I'm wondering how much air will come into play - somehow I don't see 24 battlecruisers vs. 24 carriers in this new Starcraft
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2009, 12:12:20 AM »

this game looks retarded
Well gee eamonn, after 4 years of art college one would think you'd be able to come up with a better crit than that  Roll Eyes

Here's a crit:

First of all, Blizzard completely changed the overall look of the Starcraft universe. I could barely recognize the three supposedly distinct races, they all blended together like Micheal Bay's Autobots & Decepticons, with the fancy new 3d graphics filling Megan Fox's role of eye candy.
I am expecting a repeat of what happened when Warcraft 3 came out. Yeah, it looked all fancy with the 3d environments, but it was quick to lag and could barely handle battles larger than a skirmish (played it on several computers, not just macs, all had problems). And leaving out the LAN capabilities? Does Blizzard have any sense at all? I'm losing hope that it will be Mac compatible.
The new units and new capabilities may seem like a good idea, and could add more depth to the gameplay. Oh wait, then they include ridiculous features such as rocks that have hit points. Cool! And what is the point of having so many units when you barely get to use them?
But let's be realistic, Blizzard has never, and most likely never will, repeat the gem that was Starcraft.
In reality, that game was a fluke. The company has proven to be nothing more than a nuthouse of over-privileged, unimaginative nerds that simply stole, swapped or flat out copied hallmarks of science fiction movies to create a pimple faced, pasty white, overweight gaming geek's wet dream (I guess Koreans too).
Just watch the Battle Reports. Already, you can hear the saliva foaming at the mouths of these two commentators, who feel that dictating a computer game is on par with watching a game in which real players have dedicated their entire lives to becoming superior athletes.
And finally, lets review the toll of what this Starcraft will ultimately take. It will no doubt have a heavy gravitational pull on the hearts of players of the first edition, and they will lose even more of their lives playing a completely predictable, pointless game. Then those veteran gamers will introduce it to the newbies, and more lives will be needlessly drained of ambition, intelligence, and sleep.





That being said, I'm getting very excited for this game.





Well gee, Bryce. I thought you would have caught on by now.  doh
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2009, 12:13:30 PM »

First of all, Blizzard completely changed the overall look of the Starcraft universe. I could barely recognize the three supposedly distinct races, they all blended together like Micheal Bay's Autobots & Decepticons, with the fancy new 3d graphics filling Megan Fox's role of eye candy.

Consider that the gameplay videos we've seen are at a reduced resolution - the game is clearly not meant to be played at 640x480, and upon looking at screenshots at full resolution, I'd say the distinctions are still very much intact - the  Organic Organic, Techy Techy, and Organic-Techy themes between the races are clearly visible, and for the most part the silhouettes between the races is distinct.  Have a look here:
http://s.sk-gaming.com/image/image/18c413faf854d375x.jpg
http://www.connectedinternet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/starcraft3.jpg
Without the distortion and grain of compression the units clearly read apart from one another, In texture, effects, form and color.

I am expecting a repeat of what happened when Warcraft 3 came out. Yeah, it looked all fancy with the 3d environments, but it was quick to lag and could barely handle battles larger than a skirmish (played it on several computers, not just macs, all had problems).
Warcraft 3 was released about 7 years ago.  I think its safe to say that computers have, in 7 years, come to the point where they can handle the 3d elements. I played Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne again recently and the graphics settings were on maximum across the board, and I didn't run into very much, if any lag. I've also played Company of Heroes, which is pretty darn detailed and FX-ridden on both my Computer at work and my Laptop at home, and had few problems.  I would be suprised if Blizzard didn't consider computers that arent top of the line, as the ratio of hardcore gamers to casual gamers is high, and to maximize profits, you'd want it to play smoothly on a humbler computer.

Looking at the screenshots I posted above, I think its clear that large battles are possible, as far as gameplay is concerned. The gameplay videos that have been released are clearly high level of play, and not "20 minute no-rush money map" games, so one woudln't expect 64 hydralisks vs 48 dragoons clashing. If you look at high-level Starcraft Classic play, its the same way.


And leaving out the LAN capabilities? Does Blizzard have any sense at all? I'm losing hope that it will be Mac compatible.
Blizzard has always developed games for both Mac and PC, and usually released both at the same time. I wouldn't worry about that. As far as the LAN is concerned, I'll agree thats a bit worrysome - Blizzard however doesn't completely ignore its fans and consumers, and hopefully if enough people sign the petition they'll get the hint.  I can't imagine, from a programmers perspective, that setting up a LAN interaction can be that hard, and were they to release without, I feel like further updates would incorporate LAN capabilities. Blizzards reason for lack of LAN is mainly based around piracy, and Blizzard is a business, and not fools.  Piracy is easy and can be costly to the company and its shareholders. LAN gaming could discourage sales, as the more casual player would be more likely to meet up with their buddies at a computer lab or with their laptop and play, instead of purchasing their own copies.  Ever wonder why a great deal of newer console games have limited multiplayer capabilities, if any?  It means more sales when the players need to purchase their own systems and copies of the game, and ultimately, as much as we'd like to think game developers want to make games for the sake of games, its really all about the money.


The new units and new capabilities may seem like a good idea, and could add more depth to the gameplay. Oh wait, then they include ridiculous features such as rocks that have hit points. Cool! And what is the point of having so many units when you barely get to use them?
I think the destructible rocks are a cool idea.  They add a dynamic touch to the maps and limit the amount of turtling one could do - the environment becomes a lot more interactive and interesting, as they force characters to think about the battlefield in a more 3 dimensional way, instead of just finding a chokepoint and filling up with supply depots and siege tanks, one must consider the vulnerability of their base in a temopral way; in the late game, when the destruction of the rocks would be more likely to happen, instead of in the beginning.

Clearly multiple units and unit types add a variety of options to an experienced player.  Working closely with game designers for the last year has taught me a lot about the intricacies of gameplay. Most of the elements that have been added to starcraft 2 are meant to broaden the spectrum of player skill differentiation.  For example in Street Fighter 4, execution of button inputs and understanding timing is key, if you want to get particularly good at the game.  One cannot do high-damage, multiple-hit combos by simply buttonmashing, particularly against a seasoned player.   The result of this, and the ranking system online, is that when playing other players of equal rank, the game is more intense and fun, as the two players are on a more even playing field. When you find someone of even roughly equivalent skill, the amount of fun one gets out of playing the game is multiplied, and things become a lot more interesting.

The same appears to be true for Starcraft 2 - Multiple units types, as well as more complex maps, with destructible rocks and yellow high-yield crystals make for more options that a player has at his or her disposal, which allows for a wider spectrum of skill differentiation, and therefore clearer ranking.

But let's be realistic, Blizzard has never, and most likely never will, repeat the gem that was Starcraft.

I disagree.  Starcraft is a game that is over 10 years old, and from it many RTS games have blossomed fourth, further perfecting and completing the ideas that it first put fourth.  Blizzard has (with the exeception of warcraft 3, perhaps) an excellent track record of expansions to the IP's they've created. Comparing the changes from Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3 and the changes of Starcraft to Starcraft 2, it would appear that for the most part they've learned their lessons.  There are no Hero units in Starcraft 2, or Creeps, or non-player buildings that affect gameplay (with the exception of the xelnaga tower), and those three things were the most radical changes to the Warcraft gameplay that made warcraft 3 such a different, and somewhat disappointing game.  The game designers have a lot of reference to look at as far as what works in a strategy game, and what doesn't,  and considering the same basic team is developing this new game, I'd be very surprised if they did terribly.

In reality, that game was a fluke. The company has proven to be nothing more than a nuthouse of over-privileged, unimaginative nerds that simply stole, swapped or flat out copied hallmarks of science fiction movies to create a pimple faced, pasty white, overweight gaming geek's wet dream (I guess Koreans too).

Well ad-hominem attacks on the company sure make for a good argument.  Roll Eyes  When you look at just about every bit of Science Fiction entertainment, at this point things have become a big recycling of old stuff. This is the case with books, with television series, movies, and video games are no different. I'm not going to contest the fact that Starcraft took a good look at the Alien, Predator movies  and the Warhammer universe and grabbed a whole bunch of stuff to use. What I will argue is that while some things have clearly been 'inspired' or even directly quoted, for the most part the game took the aesthetic and perhaps thematic ideas of those few things and expanded upon them until it became its own thing. Ultimately the things that do well in entertainment are things that are new and exciting, and sometimes that means a rethinking of an old idea, a new creative take on some idea another person had.  Blizzard has a track record of producing multiple Triple-A titles, which usually means innovation and creativity, and that perhaps they are aware of the demographic that they are selling to is hardly something to fault them for.  EA Sports certainly knows that street well - they clearly market their games like FIFA and Madden to the meat-headed jocks, and the balding, beer-bellied, fat, stat-junkies.

Just watch the Battle Reports. Already, you can hear the saliva foaming at the mouths of these two commentators, who feel that dictating a computer game is on par with watching a game in which real players have dedicated their entire lives to becoming superior athletes.
I've seen the Finals in MMA fights, I've seen the world Cup and the Superbowl, and I've also seen the Finals for Fighting Games, Real Time Strategy games and First Person Shooters.  If you think that any one of the latter three somehow require less dedication and skill  than the first three talk to Daigo Umehara, pretty much the #1 fighting game champion of the world, whose been at it for like 12 years.  Talk to Justin Wong, the #1 American player for Street Fighter 4, who practices and plays 50 hours a week, or any of the professional videogamers in the various genres. The only difference between video games and sports are the repercussions to the body in the later years of life.  One has horrible joint problems and arthritis, the other one has carpal tunnel and diabetes.  One requires new shoes, pads, a uniform and an ambulance nearby, the other requires a computer or console, and an internet connection.

Additionally, the commentators are the game's Designers.  Of course they're excited about the game they've spent a year or two creating.

And finally, lets review the toll of what this Starcraft will ultimately take. It will no doubt have a heavy gravitational pull on the hearts of players of the first edition, and they will lose even more of their lives playing a completely predictable, pointless game. Then those veteran gamers will introduce it to the newbies, and more lives will be needlessly drained of ambition, intelligence, and sleep.

The exact same thing could be said about Soccer, Basketball, or any Sport. Games, wether they be played digitally, or in real life are ultimately pointless wastes of time. take a look at Final Fantasy, where you can play for literally hundreds of hours before beating the game.  Talk about pathetic, where you spend a shitton of time killing small shit so you can get that limit break or something to beat the final boss by switching through menus of attacks.


That said, if you feel like you don't want to play the game, then don't.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2009, 12:25:07 PM »

I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what exactly does LAN connection do? If they don't include it does that mean that you can't play your friends without going through battle.net or what?
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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2009, 12:48:44 PM »

I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what exactly does LAN connection do? If they don't include it does that mean that you can't play your friends without going through battle.net or what?

LAN = Local Area Network

basically it means connecting the computers directly through one another, without the assistance of the internet.  In previous Blizzard games, starcraft included, you could install a 'multiplayer only' version of starcraft without having to use multiple serial codes - basically one only needed a single CD to play with 7 other people, so long as they bring their computers, or your at a place with multiple computers that are connected. This 'multiplayer only' version of starcraft would only be good for playing in a LAN, as you couldn't connect to battle.net, or play single player.
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2009, 01:49:17 PM »

I am a bit confused about the protoss warping in. Do they appear next to whatever building made them like everything else or can you have them appear anywhere in the psi or what? Like in the zerg v protoss video, how did they wind up in the back of the zerg base?
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2009, 02:04:30 PM »

I am a bit confused about the protoss warping in. Do they appear next to whatever building made them like everything else or can you have them appear anywhere in the psi or what? Like in the zerg v protoss video, how did they wind up in the back of the zerg base?

From what I understand, You can warp in your units from within the range of a pylon, to another pylon, or to a stationed warp prism.  The warp Prism is basically like the shuttle, in that it can carry units, but it can also transform into a stationary floating object that serves as a temporary pylon, and you can therefore warp in units.  Its kind of like if the zerg could teleport across creep.  I think there's a cooldown of like 30 seconds for each unit though, so its not like you can warp in units then send 'em back.

In the zerg v. toss vid there was a warp prism behind the zerg expansions that was just chillin there till he had the units/the right time, and thats how they appeared there
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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2009, 02:06:38 PM »

it just all looks like a pretty screen saver to me
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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2009, 02:40:10 PM »

To begin with, I think Starcraft is awesome. But as far as the, I don't know, the originality debate that seems to be happening, I'd like to weigh in on that. In all fairness design-wise, Starcraft is a straight-up rip-off of Warhammer 40k. The Terrans are the Space Marines, the Zerg are the Tyranids and the Tau. Blizzard was in negotiations to acquire the Warhammer license at one point. I love Starcraft, I really do. I was never very good at it, but I think it's a great game and I even enjoy watching other people play it. But I think it's important not to gloss over the gruesome details.
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2009, 03:15:09 PM »

To begin with, I think Starcraft is awesome. But as far as the, I don't know, the originality debate that seems to be happening, I'd like to weigh in on that. In all fairness design-wise, Starcraft is a straight-up rip-off of Warhammer 40k. The Terrans are the Space Marines, the Zerg are the Tyranids and the Tau. Blizzard was in negotiations to acquire the Warhammer license at one point. I love Starcraft, I really do. I was never very good at it, but I think it's a great game and I even enjoy watching other people play it. But I think it's important not to gloss over the gruesome details.

Blizzard has made never denied any of this - they do not pretend to be original. They've always ever said that it is sort of a caricature of science fiction with ideas lifted from all over the place. Thats why there's blatant lines from Aliens in it. Science Fiction as a whole is actually pretty unoriginal - even Warhammer 40k lore. The Space Marines and Imperium are modeled after Starship Troopers (the book) and Battletech (which in turn did not invent the idea of mechs), and the Tyranids are pretty much the aliens from Aliens. Blizzard just meshed all the cliches into a Science Fiction for Dummies universe.

Also Starcraft came out before Games Workshop introduced the Tau  Colbert
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2009, 03:19:28 PM »

Also Bryce I agree with absolutely everything else you said but this

I've seen the Finals in MMA fights, I've seen the world Cup and the Superbowl, and I've also seen the Finals for Fighting Games, Real Time Strategy games and First Person Shooters.  If you think that any one of the latter three somehow require less dedication and skill  than the first three talk to Daigo Umehara, pretty much the #1 fighting game champion of the world, whose been at it for like 12 years.  Talk to Justin Wong, the #1 American player for Street Fighter 4, who practices and plays 50 hours a week, or any of the professional videogamers in the various genres. The only difference between video games and sports are the repercussions to the body in the later years of life.  One has horrible joint problems and arthritis, the other one has carpal tunnel and diabetes.  One requires new shoes, pads, a uniform and an ambulance nearby, the other requires a computer or console, and an internet connection.

is wrong wrong wrong  Colbert
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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2009, 03:23:46 PM »

I'm not so sure about that Tau date? Did it come out before they introduced a dedicated, canonical rulebook for the Tau? Or did it come out before they mentioned/drew the Tau in any of the books?
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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2009, 03:47:00 PM »

I'm not so sure about that Tau date? Did it come out before they introduced a dedicated, canonical rulebook for the Tau? Or did it come out before they mentioned/drew the Tau in any of the books?

Wikipedia says Games Workshop introduced them in 2001. Starcraft came out in 1998.

Also there was a brief, dark period of my life when I was playing Starcraft and still pretty into Warhammer, and I don't remember hearing a damn thing about the Tau.
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2009, 04:04:58 PM »

Not that any of this matters/is important, blah, blah blah. But! The way I heard it, Games Workshop was going to sell the current and future plans for the 40k universe (or however that works) which already included plans for the Tau. I don't know if that's what happened.
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2009, 04:22:00 PM »

Also I just thought of something -

The destructable rocks will be a great way to prevent rushing!

(the most cowardly of strategies)
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2009, 04:29:42 PM »

Hrm.

The game is being released in three seperate sections. The main game, "Wings of Liberty," will be released sometime in 2009 and will contain the Terran Campaign and full multiplayer capabilities. There will then be two expansions - "Heart of the Swarm" and "Legacy of the Void" dedicated to the Zerg and Protoss campaigns respectively. Each expansion will most likely also contain new units like Brood War did.

"But wait, Blizzard is making us pay three times for one game? BLIZZARD IS SCREWING US!"

No, they're honestly really not. As they've mentioned dozens of times, they were trying to make SC2 as epic as they could and include all the neat ideas they could think of. The scope of the game was simply proving to be way too damn big, so they had three options. 1 - Cut out a lot of the cool stuff they wanted to do and make the game short like SC1 was. 2 - Split it up and include everything they wanted to do. 3 - Try to put everything all in one game and potentially wind up with a 2012 release date or something. They obviously went with option 2.

What we know about the trilogy so far: READ THIS SECTION BEFORE POSTING PLEASE

    * The first game, "Wings of Liberty" will be released sometime in 2009
    * The two expansions are going to take "at least a year" to develop after the main game is released, so expect '10 for the first and '11 for the second.
    * The campaigns are going to be MASSIVE. SC1 had about 30 missions total. EACH part of the trilogy is going to have 26-30 missions, so you're looking at a very long game.
    * They will be expansions per se. There have been rumors going around that they will be standalone games that spread from a quote taken out of context. The exact quote was something like "Each section will have more content to almost be considered a standalone" or close to that
    * Since they have said the second two parts will be expansions, expect expansion pricing. They have not stated price points, but $50 + $30 + $30 is probably likely. Remember it'll be spread out over 3 years and you spent $80 on SC+BW anyways.
    * There are going to be a LOT more ingame cinematics, and there will be areas between missions where you can interact with Raynor, Tychus, etc. and learn more about the story.
    * The Terran campaign will have a focus on acquiring new technology, the Zerg one will be about power and control, the Protoss one will feature diplomacy.
    * There will be a tutorial of some kind seperate from the campaign to teach new players all the races, so don't worry about the campaign being Terran-only in the first part of the game
    * Battle.net will NOT be a pay service, the part that everyone's quoting is from a D3 panel and they were talking about stuff similar to WoW char. transfers, it will most definitely be free to play
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 05:17:38 PM »

Science Fiction as a whole is actually pretty unoriginal

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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 11:16:07 PM »

Also Bryce I agree with absolutely everything else you said but this
is wrong wrong wrong  Colbert

Well then by all means, explain why!


Also I just thought of something -

The destructable rocks will be a great way to prevent rushing!

(the most cowardly of strategies)
On large maps with lots of distance, sure ... unless there are maps where every entrance is blocked with rocks


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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2009, 12:03:06 AM »

This thread is delivering the unintentional laughs.

That said, I'm still going to play the shit out of this game.
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